Input Requested for Upcoming Class Changes

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  • #58174
    Marley Sage
    Participant
    @jaerc
    Quote:
    Force Skills which are gained from Classes no longer occupy a Combat Skill Slot as a separate skill. Instead, Class Force Skills are gained as alternative options for a character’s existing Force Skill.

    >> I appreciate that this reduces the overall number of Force Skills available to a character over a day, though it is worth noting that because of Force limits it won’t change how individual battles play out.
    While this is a universal nerf with vastly unequal effects across different builds and Classes, it’s still a good one IMO, and frankly only the start of appropriate reduction the number of Force Skills available overall.

    Quote:
    The character can choose to purchase their Class Skill as a 1/Logistics hot-swap, or they can purchase the skill so it can be swapped without limitation.

    >> I would suggest that a dynamic, wherein the existing limits of Force Skills are leveraged in the application of alternative skill usage. In this proposal instead of paying 5 Skill Points to “hot-swap” (an inelegant term) the skill once per logistics, the Cost would remain the same, but the character would gain the capacity to “hot swap” freely for one battle.

    Quote:
    If the Druid character spends 5 Skill Points on their Class Force Skill, then they are able to hot-swap to use their Druid Entangle/Nature Form once per logistics. If the character spends 30 skills points, then they may hot-swap their Druid Class Skills without limitation.

    >> Paying 5 SKP across the board to hotswap the already slashied Skills per logistics magnifies the inequalities between the number of slashies effects within distinct Class Force Skills. A Wizard spends 5 SKP to be able to expand Force Arcane on one of six new skills, whereas a Bard would gain only two. A way of challenging that escalation in inequity would be to charge 5 SKP per Class Force Skill’s slashied effect, so a Druid would pay 5 SKP to be able to hotswap their Force Mystic with Nature Form…and another 5 SKP to be able to hotswap Entangle.

    Quote:
    In some cases, the Class Force Skills granted by a class are only eligible to be hot-swapped from a specific list of the standard Force Skills.

    >> Could you put this another way, I’m having trouble understanding this part.

    >> Concerning 5/30 cost vs 6 5s I like Pat’s scalar idea and it is very compatible with the hotswappable battles rather than hotswappable per logistics proposal. Character updating and system simplicity are identical for both idea, so I’d like to see the case for rules balance in favor of 5/30, if possible, given the rough draft nature of the idea.

    >> I worry a lot about the retention of the “class identity” of Jack of All Trades (though hopeful that they can be true dabblers now, rather than facing such austere options) and am slightly leery of how this system empowers builds that are already heavy with open Slots like Expert Adventurers.

    >> After the weekender I will return to pushing out ideas for each of the remaining classes on my list so that you and Gomez have more food for thought. I know the Classes aren’t played in equal numbers, some not at all, and by players without who for one reason or another find giving feedback difficult — I think they deserve some representation. I would encourage anybody who does play the Classes that I have not yet made suggestions for, who hasn’t given feedback yet, to chat with me about any ideas that might have crossed their minds, which I would be happy to include.

    Coming Suggestions – Projected Date
    Capsarior, Druid, Elementalist 8/29

    • Gray Hunter, Infiltrator, Marksman, Master Artisan 9/1
    • Monk, Ranger, Scoundrel 9/3
    • Scout, Shadow, Swashbuckler, Thief 9/5
    • Theurge, Thug, Warden, White Knight 9/7

    OOG: Marley Sage Gable, Staff Director & Plot Team Member

    PC: Rigel - Asurkian Bard ~ Alchemist Artificer

    #56137
    Grant M
    Participant
    @valeron

    I just want to make sure concerning the consolidating of force abilities…

    Concerning Talent force abilities, each one will still take up a slot, but the class ones will be merged into hotswap ones for a single force ability. If there will still be a slot for each talent force ability, is the 1/log hotswap for EACH force slot, or just overall for the character? I do see you say ‘a force ability’, does that mean when you pay the 5 or 30 skp, you have to designate which talent force ability it is then tied to?

    Example: A character can use Arcane and Mystic Force abilities. When he pays the 5 skp for 1/log of wizard ability, does he declare that the wizard force will be tied to Arcane at that time, or during the casting he decides which talent force he uses for it?

    Quote:
    In some cases, the Class Force Skills granted by a class are only eligible to be hot-swapped from a specific list of the standard Force Skills.

    Marley, I assume this means that certain classes can only hotswap the force abilities with certain talent forces. Example: Spell Blade Force abilities can only be hotswappable with either Arcane/Mystic and cannot use Rogue/Fighter force abilities.

    Here are some of my thoughts for restricted class abilities. I dont know how restrictive you want to be on this, but I tried to basically feel if using certain force abilities do not line up with the class.

    White Knight: Cannot be used with Rogue Force
    Wizard: Cannot be used with Fighter/Rogue Force
    Marksman: Cannot be used with Arcane/Mystic Force
    Black Knight: Cannot be used with Arcane Force
    Bard: Cannot be used with Fighter Force

    Grant Martin
    Please see my profile for contact information
    Characters:
    Valeron Avarici, Human, Merchant Guild Leader
    Kovac Baford, Elentari, Member of Brotherhood of the Dark Star
    If you need help coding your signature, please ask me

    #58175
    herogoeth
    Keymaster
    @herogoeth

    Thanks for all of the feedback, everyone.

    Traditionally, Mythic has tried to keep class restrictions at a minimum, so that most characters have a wide array of class choices that they are eligible for, even if they don’t necessarily fit the traditional concept for those classes. This allows for a greater flexibility in the RP Character Concepts that our players can pursue. That said, we definitely see the need for some restrictions. As such, our intention is to be a bit less strict than many other systems are, in regards to Talent/Class restrictions.

    Here is an draft of what we are thinking about potentially doing for the classes that already

    • Bard – Force Mimic / Heroism – Any/All Standard Force Skills
    • Black Knight – Devour Soul / Demon Form – Any/All Standard Force Skills
    • Dread Lord -Entropy / Banshee’s Wail – Mystic
    • Druid – Entangle / Nature Form – Mystic & Arcane
    • Marskman -Arrowstorm / Twin Shot – Any/All Standard Force Skills
    • White Knight – Spirit of Light / Selfless Heroism – Any/All Standard Force Skills
    • Wizard – Wizard High Magic – Mystic & Arcane

    As a side note, Black Knights and White Knights are able to hot-swap from any force skill specifically because the IG idealogy is that a Black Knight or a White Knight can come from any path. You’ll never be able to free yourself from the endless recruiting efforts of a Light Walker by saying “Sorry, I can’t become a White Knight because I’m a rogue”.

    In regards to the questions about Wizards, the idea is that (for 5 skill points) they would probably be able to hot-swap to use Wizard High Magic once per logistics, and that they could choose to use either arcane or mystic to do that with.

    If they had spent 30 skill points, then they would be able to hot-swap all of their arcane spells and all of their mystic spells if they chose to do so.

    #56138
    Travis Emery
    Participant
    @krow

    As I understand the proposed changes;

    The ‘Force’ skill becomes it’s own separate skill, but can still be purchased at the normal cost of ‘Force’ skills.

    There-in a “fighter” who is 500 points may purchase up to 5 ‘Force’ skills.
    This same fighter chooses the Thug class, and pays the 5SP option, and may choose to use 1/log as the ‘Force Rogue’, however if they pay the 30SP option they may use up to all 5 ‘Force’ skills as either ‘Force Fighter’ or ‘Force Rogue’.

    Same for the Druid in question.
    If the Mystic has 300 points, and 3 ‘Force’ skill, they may pay the 5SP to “hot-swap” 1/log for their ‘Nature Form/Entangle’, whereas for 30SP they could choose to use all their ‘Force’ skills as ‘Nature Form/Entangle’ is so desired.

    I see this as very balanced, as it restricts by total skill points, not class.
    So as for the examples given, a Wizard may have more option to “hot-swap” each time they elect to do so, they are still limited by the same number that another class may get…
    meaning;
    A 300 skill point Wizard has the same number of ‘Force’ abilities to throw out as a 300 skill point Druid.
    The difference is specialization and usage.
    Where a Wizard may choose to throw their Damaging spells, the Druid can Restore, Entangle, or turn into a huge beast, but either way, only the same amount of times per logistics.

    IMHO anyway

    –Travis

    "You know nothing of passion. When your rage can sunder mountains, you may speak to me of passion."
    -- Krowthus Quince of the Clan of the Bear, summer 215

    #56139
    Travis Emery
    Participant
    @krow

    I guess my one request would be if we are moving to this model, I approve whole-heartedly, but would there be a way to ensure every class gets a unique ‘Force’ trade ability?

    "You know nothing of passion. When your rage can sunder mountains, you may speak to me of passion."
    -- Krowthus Quince of the Clan of the Bear, summer 215

    #58176
    Stephen Foerster
    Participant
    @magus-knight

    I personally do not understand why you need to have the Hot Swap be a raising cost. I understand that you want to have players make a choice, however, I feel like this is a bit more work than it is worth.

    Force skills are powerful, and we need to reduce the amount that players have. The initial rules change of making your ‘Force’ Pool 1 slot seems appropriate. I also suspect that you do not want to make Force skills too diversified (i.e. look I am an Wizard/Jack of All Trades, so I have a ridiculous amount of choice in what that skill is…)

    However, I have a slightly different suggestion. Instead of putting the force hot-swaps at level 1 class levels, move it to level 3 (to reflect how powerful force skills should be). Then, change the desc. to “A [Class] is able to use its Force Skill as any from the [Class 1] and [Class 2]” and make the cost 20 or 25 points. That is a significant cost to get the diversification in your force skills.

    The reason I suggest it is a couple fold:

    1) By moving the Force skill to level 3, it means that you cannot get more than a handful of extra utility from your force skills, except for Jack of All Trades.

    2) At 20+ pts (not sure on the exact cost, but I can see it as more expensive, I wouldn’t go above 30-35) to be able to do this, it is one of the more expensive class abilities bonuses in the game, and it probably should be. Force skills are powerful and for the utility you should pay for it. For Jack of All Trades, you keep the idea that Jack of All trades have to buy the ability to purchase each classes skills at 20+ ea, thereby making it a significant investment for those.

    3) From the way rules are supposed to work, the system is supposed to be simple to play. If you are setting up players to have options to hot-swap and having some who can hot-swap as many as they want, and some who can only hot-swap a few, you are unnecessarily complicating it. Allowing the ability to purchase it makes it more powerful, certainly, but that is the reason for the high cost.

    3a) This goes without saying, but I would like to note that from a player standpoint, I am not perfect at remembering all of my character skills and adding “now, how many Force Counters did I hot-swap today from my sidestep pool” won’t help.

    Those are just my thoughts on the Force Skill change. I like restricting it to one pool, I just think there are better ways to do it.

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