Input Requested for Upcoming Class Changes

Forums Out Of Game Forums Rules War Input Requested for Upcoming Class Changes

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  • #43485
    Staff Director
    Participant
    @mythic-realms

    Ladies and Gentlemen,

    As many of you know by now, there is a certain amount of restructuring that is being considered for some of the Classes, based on changes to the system that have occurred over the last 18 months.

    Now is the time to voice your opinions/concerns with Classes that you feel need some attention. Bear in mind that this does not mean we are looking to make things more or less powerful if it is not essential, but we are trying to make the classes more flavorful and trademark, so that each class feels distinct for what it should be.

    Gomez has reached out to many of you individually, but should anyone have clever ideas for things that might make a class more unique and appealing, please don’t hesitate to let us know here, or in person.

    We want to make sure your In-Game and OOG experiences are the best possible, and your role in providing feedback is essential.

    Thanks,
    Zach M.

    #56110
    Grant M
    Participant
    @valeron

    Since you are working on the Book of Heroes, I would like to put a recommendation to add to the book, or maybe update the list in the Core Rulebook.

    Can we just have a small section that has the abilities found in classes and explain them. I cant find information on a few things, unless I look for the right class and read the description of the ability. Here is a list I grabbed from the Book of Heroes.

    Speed: I cant actually find the description of what speed does in Core Rulebook or Book of Heroes
    Radiant Burst
    Banshee’s Wail
    Glacial Freeze
    Hurricane
    Assassinate
    Mimic Magic
    Drain Life
    Demon Form
    Devour Soul
    Entropy
    Disappear
    Rogue’s Luck
    Dastardly Trick
    Keensight
    Immortality
    Renew
    Circle of Truth
    Stasis
    Spirit of Light
    Supernatural Strength

    Grant Martin
    Please see my profile for contact information
    Characters:
    Valeron Avarici, Human, Merchant Guild Leader
    Kovac Baford, Elentari, Member of Brotherhood of the Dark Star
    If you need help coding your signature, please ask me

    #56111
    Dalton
    Participant
    @dbrown

    I’d like to see radiant burst on more classes.

    #56766
    Michael K Ricks
    Participant
    @kaine-tharth

    I would like to see 4-5 ability options per level of class to create a more robust feeling of purpose for a class.

    I’m a Scout for example and there are only perhaps 3 abilities per level which feels streamlined in comparison to other classes that may have 5+ per level.

    #56767
    Sitka
    Participant
    @the-nameless-one

    I REALLY WANT A NECROMANCER CLASS.

    #56769
    herogoeth
    Keymaster
    @herogoeth

    Thanks everyone!

    Please keep the feedback/suggestions coming. We’d love to hear your thoughts on specific classes or class abilities that need to be looked at closely.

    For example, a lot of people have mentioned that the SpellBlade Class has a few really terrible powers, and that the SpellBlade class also has one or two class abilities that are way more powerful than they should be. We definitely plan on fixing it, and we really appreciate the feedback we’ve received.

    We’ve also received requests to update the Assassin Class so that the Assassinate ability is not available at 1st level. Additionally, Gomez has been contacted by many players who have asked us to take a look at the Jack of All Trades Class, which seems to be unbalanced, especially when it comes to splashing into the Jack of All Trades Class for the purpose of acquiring extra force skills.

    One of the primary things we have been talking about recently is the balance of force abilities in the game, which definitely needs a close look at. There has been some notable bloat in force abilities in this particular edition of the rules, and we’d love to hear your thoughts on ways to mitigate that problem.

    From a game design perspective, Force Skills are a resource which is governed by concepts similar to Supply & Demand. The more Force Skills that exist in PC hands the more Sidesteps & Health have to exist on Monster Stats in order to allow combat to continue to be challenging. If more and more Force Skills are added to the game, then eventually, Force Skills stop being special, and the PC characters don’t have the opportunity to shine by using them. Eventually, you’d get to a point where using your Force Skills feels pointless, because every monster will always just get out of the way.

    screen-shot-2015-05-12-at-5-46-11-pm1.png

    This reduces fun for everyone, and so it is something that we definitely need to find a good solution for. The concept even applies to Force Restore spirit, Heroism, and Force Anticipate blow as well.

    We have heard some really great suggestions during the last few weeks for updates to Classes that could help with this problem, but we’d love to hear from everyone.

    If you have other requests or suggestions, please let us know!

    For instance, Kat, you mentioned that you’d like to see a Necromancer Class. Do you have any suggestions for how that class would be different from the Dread Lord class? Would this be a class that focuses on raising and controlling undead? If so, do you have any suggestions for dealing with NPCs being unavailable to play those undead creatures? If not, what types of powers would you want Necromancers to possess?

    And Mike Ricks, are there any particular classes that you think really need some extra attention in regarding to adding new abilities? If so, what types of abilities would you like to see?

    Thanks everyone!

    Mike

    #56112
    Grant M
    Participant
    @valeron

    Concerning the Force ability creep, an option is to have a single pool of force points. Instead of each slot having its own pool. Then having force abilities from different talents just increase your selection you can use from this pool. It would free up combat slots for those that have 2+ different force abilities, but if we change classes to where they just add to the selection instead of having their own combat slot(like high wizard force), it would make the force abilities more of options, but less of a supply to use(we can change up progression of force uses also if needed).

    IE: I have a lvl 3 Druid with 400 skill points with an arcane talent. Instead of the table that uses a combat slot for force, it is a one time cost to add the choices to their force.

    Thus they would have the following force abilities to use one of their 4 force uses per logistic: Holocaust, Entangle, Nature Form, Anticipate Blow, Earthquake.

    If we want to give some other benefit to getting the force abilities from a class, there can be another skill on lvl 3 for classes that +1 use of a force ability per logistic, or we can combine them into a single skill;

    Gain the use of Nature Form and Entangle as alternate uses of your force combat skill, along with gaining +1 uses per logistic to your combat force ability.

    Concerning Necro,
    Here are some random things I’m throwing out. Feel free to tell me your thoughts or build off of them
    -An obvious choice would be the ability to use Force Enslave Undead as an ability since having minions would be out of the question for Mythic. Along with having Entropy as one too.
    -Maybe have something about immunity to undead terror or fear(or at least reduced).
    -+1 use of font of death per logistic
    -+1 damage to non force drain spells
    -1/logistic can have choice to come back as a zombie when entering death count. Similar to that potion that does the same thing.
    -A resist mind control, because working with necro and undead should bring some sort of mental fortitude to resist those you press on others.

    PS: Great job with that graph Mike

    Grant Martin
    Please see my profile for contact information
    Characters:
    Valeron Avarici, Human, Merchant Guild Leader
    Kovac Baford, Elentari, Member of Brotherhood of the Dark Star
    If you need help coding your signature, please ask me

    #56772
    Stephen Foerster
    Participant
    @magus-knight

    So, I had a couple of ideas that I meant to send off and never did, so I will just post them here for now.

    Master Artisan – 4th Soulbond item doesn’t feel like it fits in this class. I understand it is a cool ability, but Master Artisans (who make stuff for themselves) getting a 4th souldbond item seems weird. I LOVE the idea of it being level 3 Expert Adventurer, as that class is cool, but I feel needs some incentive to give people to take all 3 levels (as far as I know, we have had 1 3rd level).

    One thing I might give Master Artisans (I don’t know what level you give them this), but give them the ability to slot in artifice stones without using infusion points

    example: A Master Artisan can use the following infusions without paying their infusion costs – Craft Hall Augment Installation, Destroy Installed Augment, Install Bladestone/etc Augment. Cost – 10 – 15 sp (not sure how you would cost that.

    PS: If you wanted to make it strong (i.e. cause it is a 3rd level ability), I would also add Artificer’s Mark to that list.

    I am not trying to sound self serving on this, it was something I thought of and never emailed Gomez about it. lol

    #56113
    Grant M
    Participant
    @valeron

    Or for Necromancer, it can be to Dread Lord what Wizard is to SpellBlade. Two sides of the same thing.

    It may be that we need to rewrite dread lord a little bit to make it a bit physical(melee and range) to give Necromancer his niche of magic evil. These are just ideas and places to build off of for Kat.

    If this is built, we should probably call it something besides Necromancer, just because it will be really confusing in game just because we call basically anyone who practices Necro a Necromancer.

    Grant Martin
    Please see my profile for contact information
    Characters:
    Valeron Avarici, Human, Merchant Guild Leader
    Kovac Baford, Elentari, Member of Brotherhood of the Dark Star
    If you need help coding your signature, please ask me

    #56114
    Travis Emery
    Participant
    @krow

    As I have always understood, the PCs are ‘heroic’ characters, and as such should feel the part.
    It has been in my experience that the way to easily accomplish this feat, is to limit certain things so that by using/acquiring these abilities indeed looks and feels ‘heroic’.

    To this end I have always felt the heroic nature of ‘force’ skills/abilities has been lost a bit.
    I thoroughly enjoy the idea above about a “Force Pool”. In his example with the current rules, this druid would have access to use 8 force abilities as a 400 point character, and I know of several players currently playing who are abusing this fact.
    As a secondary note to the force pool, we could also limit Sidestep accrual by saying “You can have as many force skills equal to your skill points divided by 100, and half as many (rounded up) Sidesteps”
    This way when encountering creatures with force skills, they suddenly become ‘scarier’ and more worthwhile to defeat. This also removes the need to increase creature abilities on the fly, just to make combat last longer then 30 seconds.
    I believe it will also diminish the idea of classes like Jack-of-all-Trades are overpowered as these classes open up more opportunities, but if those things are limited by total skill points anyway it will make so a 300 point 3rd level Jack is only able to have/use 3 force skills, and have 2 sidesteps, rather than as it is, 9 force skills and 3 sidesteps.
    This idea of force skills not being very handy has made me decide to train out of abilities like forceful assault for more useful utility abilities simply because it feels like a waste of points if every creature always has 3+ sidesteps.

    Concerning Master Artisan. I have to agree with Steve that the 4th bond-able item seems misplaced here as crafted items are never able to be bound, so being exceptional at crafting items doesn’t match up as well as say Expert Adventurer.
    In keeping with the bound item theme, we could switch it to be so each time you pay to re-bind an item, you get an additional 2 months for the same cost.

    As far as my own thoughts. I kinda of feel like most classes are lacking in a unique ability. Where there are a couple classes, like White Knight, Assassin, and Warden, that have very specific class abilities that make them unique and worthwhile to pursue, where others like Arcane Bulwark, Ranger, and Thug just seem like they have no desirable qualities that make players want the classes.
    In short, I’d like to see each class have a unique 3rd level ability that stands out for that class alone and makes each viable for pursuit.

    As a 2nd thought. I feel slightly cheated as a class that uses ‘Evade’ as it is more expensive then either of the other normal defensive skills (dodge and parry). I have also felt like the normal defenses are too expensive for what they are. and would like to see either of the following;
    Make Dodge, Parry, and Evade all cost the same, with a decreased amount per level, i.e. 1 | 3 | 5 | 7 | 9 making it so they all cost only 25 points to get to your second battle use (currently 27, 33, and 37).
    or
    Keep the current costs of the skills, but for these defenses only, allow a battle use per ever 3 levels rather than 5.

    Just my two cents, and contribution to the conversation.
    Thank you for reading the long-winded post.

    –Travis

    "You know nothing of passion. When your rage can sunder mountains, you may speak to me of passion."
    -- Krowthus Quince of the Clan of the Bear, summer 215

    #56784
    herogoeth
    Keymaster
    @herogoeth

    Thanks Travis!

    There are a ton of great ideas in there. Much appreciated.

    Just a quick FYI regarding the Evade skill – our current plan for Aegis, Berserker, & Monk is to rewrite the way the class feature works to something like the following:

    Quote:
    The character gains access to be able to purchase the Evade Skill as a replacement for the Parry skill. If the character already possesses the Parry Skill, they may immediately retrain the Parry Skill to purchase the Evade Skill instead. Characters cannot ever possess both the Parry Skill and the Evade Skill.

    As far as the cost of the Evade Skill is concerned, we are definitely going to be taking a look at the costs of these skills. Right now, the Parry Skill is one of the most commonly purchased skills in the game, and our recent talks with players have actually made us think that the defensive skills might be too cheap, rather than too expensive. A lot of people have expressed the opinion that those defensive skills are a must have, stating that they are among the best skills that a character can buy.

    #56115
    Marley Sage
    Participant
    @jaerc

    In light of Force discussions, I want to bring to light that (with the oversight of Rules and the Plot Head) I am in the first stages of revising the Monster Manual for 2017.

    Therefore I want to communicate my basic philosophy as it related to adjusting Force skills on the PC side.

    Foes get fewer defenses (especially Sidesteps) and NPCs play more foes.

    In general, though this increases the value of “control” effects like Freeze Your Limb or Weaken You and greatly increases the value of Force Skills, all the while amping up the heroic vibe of the PCs.

    Of course, there will be many encounters that are not taken from the Monster Manual and even creatures that don’t follow that philosophy.

    Even in the case of Big Bad Guys — having them take effects, be defeated for a moment while the adventurers catch their breath, and then shift into a new, more dangerous form…is far more satisfyingly epic and time efficient than watching him call six Sidesteps.

    Though I’ve come to these beliefs from many years of running larps, I am most influenced by my recent PCing of Karkarov who had over 30 Force effects in a day, and a devastating number deployable each battle. This left me intimately acquainted with creatures whose defenses obviated the heroic nature of my smash-em-up character.

    OOG: Marley Sage Gable, Staff Director & Plot Team Member

    PC: Rigel - Asurkian Bard ~ Alchemist Artificer

    #56116
    Grant M
    Participant
    @valeron

    Concering Scout, here are a few ideas I was thought of while I was bored at work.

    1/logistic, ability to grant keensight 5 or 30(rules choice) to someone else. I kind of picture this as the scout sort of pointing out what to look for to notice hidden creatures, but magic-y

    Gain 1 point in Geography or Monster Lore, or maybe have them gain a specialization from a list.

    1/logistic gain ability to quick-hide outdoors. Similiar to the Infiltrator ability.

    Grant Martin
    Please see my profile for contact information
    Characters:
    Valeron Avarici, Human, Merchant Guild Leader
    Kovac Baford, Elentari, Member of Brotherhood of the Dark Star
    If you need help coding your signature, please ask me

    #56785
    Stephen Foerster
    Participant
    @magus-knight

    So I am looking at Assassin. Other than having a place for “Assassinate”, what do we want the class to do?

    For example, if the intention is for them to try and drop a target, stay invisible, and get away, we could empower existing skills or give them different tools.

    Same tools:

    1) An assassin may use Backstab (and weapon?) strikes without breaking Invisibility

    2) An Assassin gains +# dmg to the first dmg attack after they drop invisibility.

    3) (You may already be able to do this) An assassin may apply poisons without breaking Invisibility

    Another option I like would be a little more drastic but I wanted to suggest it:

    1) Remove Assassinate as a Force Skill. Give them 1 per logistics. A skilled assassin should only need one and then it makes it more rare (also add that a no effect Assassinate comes back after a short rest)

    2) On Npc side, remove Assassinate from Fortitude, so as limited as it is, you should only see on really big baddies (1/module) or like when you are in a scary part of Cyrillia).

    3) In its place, give Assassins a “super backstab” Force Skill. Make it deal a ton of dmg (say Force 100 xxx” and have it not break Invisibility. That way they can still drop something huge and get away like is flavorful for the class.

    Just some suggestions

    Ps: I am not sure about The feasibility of some of these cause welll PVP is a thing.

    #56117
    Chris, probably
    Participant
    @otso-ibiltzen

    Just for flavor, thugs should be able to use fists the way monks do.

    #56789
    Zan
    Participant
    @zan

    I have always loved lores and I would like to see more classes that offer a free lore or a specialization.

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