PDA

View Full Version : Off Topic, Long, typical Chris A post about non-fantasy Larp


Dangerfish
02-06-2004, 01:53 PM
**Upon request, if you don’t like reading long posts, I have provided a summary at the very end. That way, if you are interested in the summary, you can go back and read the post. See? Chris loves you!**

Hi Kids!

Yes, it’s time for one of Chris Alderman’s Nefarious Plans! ™

I love fantasy gaming. Very few things thrill me more than magic, combat, adventure, puzzles, and the camaraderie that develops from playing live role-playing games. Mythic is the finest in fantasy gaming I’ve ever found, and you are some of the greatest gamers I’ve ever had the pleasure of enjoying company with. You guys rock, and I love my swords and sorcery, dungeons and dragons, hack and slash gaming. Love it!

Having said that, I am so completely sick of fantasy gaming that it makes me want to cry big gloppy tears every darn time I see a spell packet. I need a change of pace before I tear out what little hair I have left! I love fantasy, but I need my science fiction fix too.

Does anyone else ever feel the same way I do? Have you ever had turn your back on J.R.R. Tolkien to hook up with Isaac Asimov?

I love my science fiction gaming, but it is much more difficult to do than your standard fantasy fair. Tabletop, computer, or larp, science fiction is the most challenging genre to master.

Why?

Technology. The greatest changes of the modern world have come about because of guns, germs, and steel. You simply can not remove them from any world of future speculative fiction.

However, being the uber geek that I am, I don’t let little things like that stop me. What I would like is some feedback from you, my favorite larping companions, to see what you would think about a game of a science fiction genre. Unfortunately, larping science fiction is hard. Not merely difficult, it’s down right pain-in-the-bum difficult to organize, run, and find a safe fun way for everyone to enjoy it. Few have the patience, and fewer still the will to go through learning a whole new set of rules. The rewards however are immense.

The biggest pain is combat. Modern to science fiction combat must involve the option of projectile weapons beyond arrows and spears.

Guns are the biggest. How the heck can you safely role-play a firefight without getting hurt, frightening mundanes, and keeping with in the bounds of legal play?


Hijack for Mandatory Ethical Statement:

I do not take firearms lightly. They are tools for violence, the same as a sword. I don’t want to open a discussion on constitutional rights or the ethics of owning and operating real firearms, I only want to say that if you’re going to play a game that involves a firearm, please be respectful. Just like you’d never pick up a real sword and hit someone with it, if you play with a prop it doesn’t mean you are going to pick up a real gun and shoot someone.


That said, you don’t have a lot of options when it comes to guns. They begin with 1 major decision that will affect all of your options in the future.

Does it fire a simulated projectile?
A)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Yes.
B)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp No.

A: Anything that simulates the firing of a projectile, either by actually shooting something such as with air-soft pellet guns or paintball markers, or by simulating a projectile with a “harmless material” as with laser tag or water squirt guns.

This can be done safely, but only with the proper equipment and rules in place to keep safety as the top priority. This option will no doubt provide the most accuracy in a simulated firefight, and the most intense simulated combat situations. These are a heck of a lot of fun.

The drawback is that this is both more dangerous, and more expensive than any other option. Rules must be set in place, and a violation of these rules could result in actual injury, just like in simulated melee weapon combat.

Simulated projectile weapons will cost more, and it would be up to the individual player to provide their own personal props and safety equipment for both PCing and NPCing. This means anyone with a limited finance may not be able to join in the gaming.

B: If you choose to treat projectile weapons as props, then you save the concern of actual weapon combat, lower costs dramatically, and safety becomes much easier to maintain. Instead of actually shooting anything, a player would practically say “bang!” in order to shoot a firearm.

The advantage is obviously low cost props, safety, less chance of upsetting mundanes, and no actual physical player skills would come into play.

The drawback is that rules are more complex to determine accuracy and damage, the element of intensity in the firefight is lost, and combat will be slowed down dramatically.

In either case, whatever you do, weather it’s a cap gun, paintball marker, model replica, or a wooden rubber band gun, you must not use props that could be mistaken for real guns by a mundane. You must keep gunplay out of mundane’s eyes, and be willing to drop everything to say “It’s just a game! See?” Normally this can be accomplished with a band of bright orange tape at the end of the barrel, in accordance with US laws regarding “toy” guns.

The next problem is technology. Fortunately, as Arthur C. Clark puts it, a sufficiently advanced technology will be indistinguishable to a more primitive society from magic. To put more simply, high-tech looks like magic. We’ve already conquered the problem of magic in non-combat situations, so technology becomes a game of props. Items are replaced with computers, and spells with programs. Easy enough, and still a lot of fun.

So, now that I’ve told you how we can do it, who would be willing to give it a try?

What I am proposing is an experimental couple of games on the side. Not necessarily under the banner of Mythic Realms, as not every member of Mythic is a science fiction fan, and I don’t want Mythic to have to worry about any problems with safety, insurance, and those other invisible little problems that crop up when you make a game that involves people hitting each other.

Please post a response if you would be interested in playing a science fiction style game. I haven’t determined if the genre would be more along the lines of “Aliens” style hunt/survival horror (we play good-guy military types who go kill bad creatures that want to eat us), cyberpunk (Bladerunner, Shadow Run style “free operative” missions where players are street mercenaries hired to run jobs in a dark future), or something along the lines of Masamune Shiro’s Ghost in the Shell or Appleseed, or even something totally different (anti-terrorist teams vs. psychic monster terrorists of doom?)

I don’t know where we would play (Silly larpers, Castle is for Mythic!), or how we would do it, only that I really need a break from the same old same old.

If no one is interested, I promise I’ll let the topic die a cold and lonely death into obscurity. If anyone is interested, I would love to hear from you. I hope I’m not the only one interested in something like this.

Thanks for reading!


**Chris’s Summary for Those Too Lazy to Read the Whole Thing:**

I like sci fi!
In want to play a science fiction larp. Do you want to play a science fiction larp? We could play one together! Sci fi larps need guns. Guns are hard to larp, but can be done. Want to try it?

-Chris "They call me 'junkie'"

Katalyst Ariex
02-06-2004, 02:12 PM
I think it's a good idea. I like the shadowrunner type dealie. I don't do the combat with guns, but breaking and entering into high-security, I can do that...

-Brooke Staten

Sir Clinkus
02-06-2004, 04:16 PM
*** Off Topic, Sorry Chris ****

I like the Summary, You should start doing them at the end of all posts, just cus i check at work and dont have time to read big long chris posts :P

Kyrus Orelukson
02-06-2004, 06:00 PM
Drew also is interested in this idea. I'm thinking a cayberpunk setting would be a lot of fun. asfar as guns I think that waterguns would be the easiest way to go. for combat and I've found a really workable way to run hacking in a larp and keep that hacker with the party. Basicly is makes hacking the equivilent of a phase walk but you can affect the enviroment though the computer.

I also love the Idea of playing a cloud of nanites as a charecter weather PC or NPC. but I'm kind of rambleing and have gotten my point across so bye

MadNinjaPimp
02-06-2004, 06:04 PM
I have always wanted to do this, as has sean prue. To the the point of a very serously considering an airsoft larp. I'll see you in a few so...

AngelKaizer
02-07-2004, 11:59 AM
...Nerf guns? :D

I might be interested; depending on what type of combat you end up deciding on, ph15hy.

-Ang(ie/e/el)

Dangerfish
02-08-2004, 12:47 PM
On combat –

Since the bug bit me, I’ve been doing some research. We have a few options on how combat would be handled, but as one friend I spoke to pointed out, “If we don’t want to shoot at each other, why aren’t we just playing Cam?”

I must admit, part of the thrill is the simulation of combat involved in live roleplay. I don’t honestly think I would have the same satisfaction from saying “bang” as I would pulling a trigger and watching someone raise a hand and say “Hit!” or actually feeling the sting of a projectile and knowing full well that I was, for that moment at least, out.

The beginning and end of what I would like to do revolve around two factors:
1)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Safety
2)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Money

Safety:
If I ever hope to get a project like this together, it absolutely must be safe. I will not accept a game where there is a chance of someone being hurt by more than what you could expect at a rough night of Mythic Realms. If it’s not safe, I am not playing/running/touching it.
I would also impose the age restriction of 16 years old, WITH signed waver of a parent/guardian, or 18 with your own signature on a waver.

Money:
Props cost money, no two ways around it. If you are in, you are in buying your own equipment. Using the equipment I would like to see used, there would be no question of safety so long as people follow basic rules. Unfortunately, it’s not just your home-depot trip for boffers.

Props:

Armor:
First and foremost, if we are shooting projectiles at one and other, you are wearing full wrap around safety goggles and mask that covers face/ears. No question. I don’t care if we are using over glorified nerf guns, PROTECT YOUR FACE! What I would prefer to see is long sleeves, throat protection, gloves, and long pants. Beyond that, you should be safe.

Hopefully, you’ll never need the mask. With any luck, you’ll never be shot in the face. Myself, I’ve been shot in the face LOTS AND LOTS OF TIMES wearing safety goggles, and never been the slightest bit hurt. Spooked? Oh yea. That’s spooky. I come out less hurt from Paintball than I do from typical Mythic.

The good news is you can buy a decent quality safety mask for as little as $15.00. I have my Paintball mask that cost me about $75.00. The difference? Mine looks neat, and won’t fog.

Guns:
“We need guns. Lots of guns.” –Neo
How can we shoot at each other without guns? We can’t. So what guns do we use?

Two options:
Sporty: Paint ball. A decent paintball gun can be reasonably purchased for about $200, to literally on up to $1,200. Then add in the price of paint, hopper, air (refillable) and you do not have an inexpensive or clean hobby. Most paintball guns do not actually look like guns; they are much sportier and designed to look sporty. The good news is you always know when you’re hit, as it leaves a mark of “paint”, on you.

Model: Airsoft – a fairly recent development of model-realistic looking BB guns that can safely be used like paintball guns. They also have specially made paint bbs, variable speeds and safety measures. They are also quite a bit less expensive than your typical paintball gun. A pistol can run anywhere from $15 - $100, where rifles typically run between $200 - $500, depending on the model.

Safety:
Both use the same safety equipment, and can be used safely under the proper conditions.

Paintball tends to be a little more gutsy – near point blank surprise shots (called “bunkering”) are not uncommon. Most fields use the “Surrender!” option, to ask someone to call themselves out to avoid being shot up close. Speed on velocity exiting the barrel is kept below 300 FPS (280 most places in Utah, and under 240 indoors)

Airsoft (no personal experience) has similar rules. Most teams (Paintball is MUCH more organized as a sport, Airsoft is played more for “fun”) follow the same speed safety rules (under 280 fps on rifles – pistols rarely have the ability to reach that velocity), and within twenty feet you must use pistols (lower velocity) or a “Surrender” kill. (It works differently in Airsoft – if you have a clean shot where you –could- hit them and say “Surrender”, the person you’ve called that on is automatically out – no option to move. In paintball, you can try to move, risking getting hit up close.)

Generally, airsoft is easier to clean, safer to operate, more cost-efficient, and looks cooler. I’ll be buying some for my costumes.

If I have enough interest even after you realize you are investing a minimum of $40.00 just to play some cyberpunk (or other sci-fi), then I’ll look into running something. I would need at least ten players for pcs and npcs per game.

For my part, over the next three months (results in April / May) if my finances hold out, I am planning on investing in some airsoft equipment of my own – probably about $400 dollars worth, to see if this is a reasonable option. If it is, I’ll let any interested players try out my equipment to see if it would be worth their time and money, so you don’t have to make a blind investment.


**Summary for the long-postaphobic: **

Game must be safe. Mandatory safety equipment, must be 16 years or older.
Safety equipment cost money. ($20 - $50) You buy your own.
Safe simulation guns cost money. ($20 - $500) You buy your own.
We could use paintball or airsoft. I prefer airsoft for listed reasons.
You’re looking at spending minimum $40.00 on your own equipment, up front.
I need a minimum of 10 people to show solid interest.
I would not start a game till May, so interested parties have time to consider.
I will be buying my own equipment to determine if this even can be done (planning $400) so interested players can determine by using my equipment if this is something they want to invest in.

-Chris “Serious? I’m always serious!”

Katalyst Ariex
02-08-2004, 01:35 PM
I'm interested, still, but like I said before I would want to be doing the shadowrunner type... if that's possible... I've been thinking about it, I'll figure something out...
I am even willing to plop money into the game...

-Brooke Staten

Flying Oyster
02-08-2004, 01:35 PM
I would like to state right now that I would be very interested. I currently own both Paintball and Airsoft equipment (from my "glory days" *snorts*) that are literally sitting on a shelf collecting dust.

I myself would be more pro-paintball than airsoft because:

A) Paintballing generally gives you more of an adrenaline rush as well as an incentive not to get hit
B) There are no arguments about whether or not you got hit (although I haven't yet tried Airsoft with paint)
C) My airsoft equipment is crappy :b

One more thing: I fully agree with Chris on the aspect of delaying the game till May...although I would encourage till early June, because I won't be able to play (age-wise) until after the 25th.

Just my two copper.

-Isaac

Katalyst Ariex
02-08-2004, 01:42 PM
ooo ooo I like paintball more too, cuz I have a nice paintball gun... and I've never used it...
I'm even into it with the risk of getting non-paint related injuries...

-Brooke Staten

AngelKaizer
02-08-2004, 03:31 PM
ph15hy--

I haven't tried paintball or airsoft (I know, I know.. I'm lame like that), so I can't say which I prefer. I've heard both are really fun and both usually hurt. However, from my lack of experience, I'd say both sound like a good option.

Problem with moi? As much as I'm interested in participating, I probably can't afford it. No incentive for you NOT to play or anything, but just saying I probably can't. No worries though, I'll still watch here since nothing's decided and I'll try and start collecting some money.

-Ang(ie/e/el) - 1 ph15h, 2 ph15h, red ph15h, blue ph15h

Staff
02-08-2004, 03:48 PM
I've considered the same thing, especially if we end up doing laser tag in the Castle year-round. Laser-tag is more user friendly, but costs more to purchase the beginning equipment. I have a few ideas, but was never able to make it make enough sense overall with a rules system for LARPing. Anywho... chat with ya'll soon!

James

MadNinjaPimp
02-08-2004, 03:52 PM
In all of my devine wisdom (heh ya I know), I had a thought....


So why not give it a whirl and author the rules and do beta and play testing with nerf* style weapons?

Much cheeper, and you can get a feel for where you want to go with this....

Page

Dangerfish
02-08-2004, 04:45 PM
Great to hear some support! Glad I'm not the only goof interested in this kind of thing.

Since I am fanatical, I’ve contacted two major Airsoft teams located in Utah, and hope to be playing with them sometime (using rentals) before the end of February. That way (since I’ve probably played more paintball than most, if not all of you) I can get a safe feel for how Paintball and Airsoft would compare.

As much as I would like to use Paintball, there are a number of factors to consider, the foremost being cost.

Ammo is the key feature to keep in mind when you are dealing with our options.

Safety:
From reports, Airsoft is significantly less likely to hurt than paintball. Airsoft bbs are plastic, have some level of bounce, and weigh minimally. Paintballs are substantially larger, and require more force to speed them up to your average 250+ feet per second. You can safely fire a paintball at UNDER 300 fps without risking potentially permanent injury to any location on the body but the eyeball. Airsoft bbs can be fired at closer to 350 fps (a substantial difference in velocity, range, and accuracy) without fear. Airsoft guns simply don’t hit as hard because they don’t need to hit as hard.

Let me remind you, personal experience tells me that 300 fps paintballs hits sting worse than Dave in a bad mood on a cold winter day. That’s a lot of sting, I assure you. I’ll give you a full report on Airsoft as soon as it becomes available to me.

Cost:
Paintball is in the long run substantially more expensive than airsoft. For the price of 500 premium rounds of paint, you can get a package of 3,000 rounds of airsoft bbs. A high quality air tank costs more than a high quality battery & charger/discharger set, and must be re-filled at a cost.

Durability:
Paintball guns are also more prone to breakage from wear and tear, from the amount of force being put onto the ammunition by moving parts with every round. More breaks = more maintenance = more money. In the long run, an airsoft gun will outperform a paintball gun in number of rounds fired.

Accuracy:
Paintball is accurate up to 40 feet, unless you are using advanced (read: expensive) upgrades an equipment. You can probably get accuracy up to 60 feet. Airsoft is stock accurate (reported) to 50-75 feet for electric, 20-40 for spring. They’re about on par.

Clean up:
Airsoft: Sweep up the bb’s, and go home.
Paintball: Hire a cleaning crew, cause it’s gonna get messy. Really messy. Really fast.

These are the reasons I would prefer to use airsoft over paintball.

VS other options:
Laser tag:
The beginning and end is money. A laser tag arena in Castle would be very user friendly, and unseemly expensive. I’ve seen them come and go in Salt Lake City at least three times.

Safety:The safest option, hands down.

Accuracy: Laser tag promises absolute accuracy, and delivers it. It is more accurate than paintball or airsoft. Unfortunately, it also is easier to cheat. You must hit sensors, and if the sensor fails, you are not hit. It is easy to cover sensors, and hard to hit them unless you have time to aim.

Cleanup: Excellent. Nothing to clean!

Maintenance: Not much to maintain due to fewer moving parts to break, but very very expensive when things do break.

Nerf:
Cheap!

Safety: So safe, even a page could play.

Accuracy: Accurate up to about 4 feet. No really. At gross point blank, you’re sitting pretty. At range? You can hit up to about 30 feet. If you are lucky. And have a good back wind. I don’t know what you’ll hit, but you’ll hit something. Maybe the ground.

Clean up: Pick up your darts and go on. Easy as spell packets, and less chance of getting eaten.

Maintenance: Nope. When it breaks, you go buy a new one.

Conclusion:

If I thought it was viable, I would go with Paintball. I have invested over $1,000 dollars, have a tricked out auto-cocker with 16 inch dye barrel, nice darn goggles, electric hopper, 2 pair gloves, 2 jersies, kneepads, CO2, compressed air tank, and about 800 unused paintballs just looking for an excuse. Don’t think I’m going airsoft because I have anything against paintball!

For the long run, I think airsoft is by far and away a more easily accessible, viable option. Before I had done my research, I would have said paintball all the way.

Now? No. Airsoft has my vote over paintball, and laser tag.


So why not give it a whirl and author the rules and do beta and play testing with nerf* style weapons?

. . . because I never thought of that before! Good idea Paige!

Since that really is a great plan, I’d like to ask permission of James and Mythic to see if we may borrow Castle sometime for a nerf-style Alpha test of a cyberpunk Larp.

I’ll announce when after I get all my ducks in a row.

**Der Uber condensed version**
Why not paintball/laser tag?
It costs too much money.
Really?
Yea. Really.
You sure you just don’t like paintball?
I have a $1,000 paintball gun, all the gear, and I’m telling you airsoft is a better deal for everyone involved.
Oh. Really?
Yea. Really. Reasons listed above.
We’ll try it with a test-group using nerf guns, to see if it’s fun or just dumb.

-Chris “My eyes, the goggles; they do nothing!!”

Katalyst Ariex
02-08-2004, 07:01 PM
Ok, I guess I'll agree this time...
If you need any help setting things up, or since I have a castle key, if James gives you permission, feel free to give me a call...

-Brooke Staten
801-381-3463

Love the condensed versions, they are so cute!

Kyrus Orelukson
02-09-2004, 11:24 AM
I'd also like to help with this project

KillerTeddyBear
02-12-2004, 07:23 PM
As soon as OT is done and I can take a breath, count me in, at very least to help with rules beta.
The cyberpunk/Shadowrun feel sounds good to me.
Although the idea of a Paranoia LARP sounds so cracked out as to be fun..:eek

Tom

Dangerfish
02-13-2004, 01:39 PM
Good news boys and girls – if it works. There is the potential for a low(er) cost & safe(er) alternative to our gunning woes.

I’ve reevaluated the airsoft/paintball issue:
Many of you have stated that you would prefer to use paintball for your gaming purposes. As I said in an earlier post, airsoft is much less expensive than paintball in initial purchase and ammunition.

The safety issues between paintball and airsoft are marginal. I don’t really feel that if everyone is following the rules that one has any clear advantage over another.

I personally prefer paintball because I don’t LIKE playing with super-realistic guns, and then having cops called on me. >_< ;;

The problem of paintball is all about the money. It costs a lot to get a decent semi-automatic paintball marker, and paint is a huge price issue. If we can get around those to costs, I would support either paintball or airsoft, each on their own merits.

Dave Simpson has been working extensively on this issue, and we are combining forces (Cyber-punk fan powers – Activate!) to find you the best possible solution for safety, cost, and fun.

Here is the deal: Dave encountered a company that made paintball-sized foam-rubber balls that could be used in any standard paintball marker. I have been researching this from his clues, and picked up the trail.

The good news is, from all reports this would provide a very safe and practical way to simulate combat. The foam has a give to it, so long as it’s not fired above 200 FPS (I would even suggest lowering it to 150-175FPS for indoors) and it’s easy (and cheap!) to adjust paintball markers to fire at lower speeds. It also means that less expensive stock markers (pump pistols that use small c02 canisters) would also be viable props for our less financially endowed PC’s. I really think this would be the safest and most cost effective solution so far.

The bad news is, I don’t know where to get them. I am going to hit some of the paintball shops in the near future, and keep exploring the web for possible dealers. They will be more of an initial purchase than your standard faire paintballs, but fully reusable, and much easier to recover than airsoft bb’s.

Anyone with any knowledge of these foam ‘paintballs’ please contact me asap so we can research these as an option.

I will be purchasing enough to experiment with if all goes well. Let me know what you think.

Super short version:
Foam paintballs = cheap gaming!
Really?
Yea, hopefully. Now if we can only find them…

-Chris “Gaming is an alternate lifestyle.”

PS: James, I know you’ve spoken with Dave about this. He and I are working together behind your back to find a way to make this as low cost and safe as humanly possible. The dream is alive, and it’s all about shooting your friends. Dave is focusing his efforts on 3rd campaign, so I am spearheading this operation until 3rd campaign is flowing.

Skullwhatyouknow
02-19-2004, 02:43 PM
Airsoft are the way to go, at 230fps point blank they hurt at all. You shouldn't have to regulate psi on the airsoft. Aiorsoft gas and electric guns can have a high rate of fire though. It shouldn't matter about which, paintball or airsoft you use when it comes to which looks real. They both have the same restriction about were you can use them. You can't use the 6mm paintballs in gas and electric airsofts though, but that shouldn't matter in a larp setting. one more thing i rather be shot with 100 airsoft than 10 paintballs. Paintball leave bruses and if you get shot over and over it sucks.
Jeh Lefevre